between DeFacto Clackamas County Sheriff H. Patrick Detloff & Charles Bruce, Stewart. 2pm; Friday, February 16, 2001.

P.D. (answering phone call): Pat Detloff speaking.

CS: Yes, Sheriff Detloff, this is Charles Stewart; ... you just left a message on my machine here returning
my call?

PD: Yes.

CS: Yea, thank you for returning my call. Umm. I've interacted with the County Commissioners and
Sheriff Bradshaw a bit in the past ... I believe I've addressed yourself in umm some of those letters when
Sheriff Bradshaw was in control there. Do you recall the interactions?

PD: Yes.

CS: OK, Good. I was wondering ... Sheriff Bradshaw ... quite some time ago had indicated that he would
be open to a meeting with us to discuss harmonizing with basic Constitutional Principles. And ... then it
didn't work out that he could meat with us to discus those things. And I was wondering if ... it might be
possible for you to ... have a meeting with us to discuss some of those things.

PD: Well what ... specifically are the issues.

CS: I think those were well outlined in the letters.

PD: OK. I'm sorry, I don't have ... I mean I just generally had some idea what was going on. So I have to
apologize. Im not sure what ... the specifics of those are. Do you have ... something I can reference to ...
and can look at that? Or can you verbalize it for me?

CS: I could try to re-fax them to you, Ill try to do that. But to try to verbalize them to, also, ... umm.
Basically ... umm ... There's a lot of concerns over ... in the foot-notes of a lot of the County Ordinances
& things, there's ... umm .. Declarations basically that uhh ... "This Ordinance being Necessary for the
Peace, Safety, & Welfare of the People, a Emergency is here-by Declared"? And umm ... that in harmony
with other documents ... such as United States Senatorial Reports indicate that umm ... these Declarations
of Emergency are being uses as ... as ... well the Emergency is basically Causing Divergence from regular
Constitutional Standards which Respect Peoples Rights to "Due Process of Law", & things like this ... .

PD: Well ... have you have some specific examples of an Emergency where this has occurred?

CS: Umm ... Umm ... What's happening is ... appears to us to be that ... that ... what is functioning out of
the regular circuit courts ... is All under Emergencies. And ... that normal modes of proceeding are ...
umm ... are Not Following Traditional Constitutional "Due Process of Law".

PD: There's not a whole lot I can do about that. I don't control the Courts.

CS: Umm ... . Technically, Umm ... . It all comes down to "Force", sir. And your in control of the
"Force" of the County.

PD: Well ... . I don't want to get into a Philosophical Discussion about that. But uhh, you-know, I've got
... Laws that I follow that are Enacted by the Legislature, or by a Political Sub-Division. And ... when
that's done, If there is a Constitutional Issue, those are Certainly Challenged in the ... appropriate action is
taken ... whether the Law is modified or the Law is no longer in existence. And uhh ... you know ... that is
Not something that I Challenge, as the Sheriff of this County.

CS: OK, Well ... We would like a Forum where-in we could challenge those things. But the Circuit
Courts don't allow us those Forums, & neither does the State Supreme Court.

PD: Well ... Im not the Forum to have that with either.

CS: In old Constitutional Law, there used to be things called "Sheriff's Courts". And if you look in ORS
Chapter 203 .., It says that the "County Court" is the "Governing Body" of the County?

PD: Well ... . Uhh, you-know ... I ... . Let me ... just tell you this ..; that I don't think there is any purpose
for us to get together. Were going to sit around and have a philosophical discussion about the
Constitutional Issues. And quite frankly, I'm not willing to do that. I'm going to Enforce the Law that
I'm Required to Enforce, & carry out my Mission of this Department to the Best of my ability. And that's
an Oath of Office that I Swore to take. And I will up-hold that. But if you've got an Issue with ... how the
Courts are Interpreting the Law ... or their not meshing with the Constitution, talking to me isn't going to
change that.

CS: Well, Sir ... . A lot of People out here are quite Desperate. And ... umm ... we see Evidence of a
Conspiracy, sir.

PD: Well ... Where you ought to be taking your Issue to then ... if there's an Issue with Laws not is ...
through the Legislative Process. State of Oregon. Which is currently in session right now.

CS: I know it's in session now ... but ...

PD: That's ... And that's who you ought to be talking to. Is your Local Representative. Either your State
Senators or your Local Rep.

CS: I believe your making Errors there, sir.

PD: Well ... I'm Sorry. I don't believe that I am. I've been around this business too-long ... to know that.

CS: Well ... I take it your Cutting-Off further Communications, then.

PD: Well ... If you got something ... something you want to talk about with this office, then were willing
to talk about it. But I'm Not going to sit down and talk to you about Constitutional Issues.

CS: Your "Not going to Talk to us about Constitutional Issues.". Can I Quote you on that Sir?

PD: Not in what your talking about right here. In this conver ... In the Text of this Conversation.

CS: I really don't understand, sir. I'd like to ... but ... You know ... . These are Serious Issues.
Were talking about whether or not ... Sheriff Bradshaw referenced that there is Three Hundred People ...
Plus ... er at least back then ... in Jail in Clackamas Country Jail.

PD: Umm Humm.

CS: And umm ... "Due Process of Law" basically Requires things like "Evil Intent", uhh ... its called
"Mens Rea" ... . And it Requires a "Body Harmed", a "Corpus Delicti" ... . Things like the Drug Laws, &
the Traffic Laws ... are in Divergence from those things. What your Enforcing there is called "Malum
Prohibitum" ... . It's the Laws of Men. It's Not the General Common-Laws of ... of "Laws of Nature &
Nature's God" upon which the Declaration of Independence referenced ...

PD: Well I follow the Constitution of the Laws of both the U.S. & the State of Oregon. And if I've got a
Court in this ... the Jurisdiction ... whether it be the Supreme Court, Appeal Court, or the Local Circuit
Court, that tells me I'm following the Law, then Im going to continue to Enforce the Law. Unless I'm told

CS: What if, a "County Court" was ahh ... formed by County Citizens ... and a Jury of Twelve People
Unanimously Declared that umm ... you should let Half the People in your Jail Out of Jail.

PD: Sorry. It's Not Recognized. There is No Authority for that to occur.

CS: That's Not what ORS Chapter 203 says.

PD: Well I think your mis-reading it.

CS: It says "County Court", Sir. That's ... that's what the words are.

PD: Well ... I'm not going to get into ya ... Into a Debate about this ... Ok? I know what I'm operating
under ... the Legal Authority I operate under ... and I know the Laws I have to operate under. And I'm just
not going to get into this Debate with you on the Phone about this.

CS: (sigh) Your Cutting-Off Communications, then ... .

PD: Well I'm ... As far as this conversation's concerned, I am. If you have some Issue with the
Department itself, a complaint about the Service were providing ... or something that ... an allegation that
we've had some mis-conduct here, with some of my Deputies; or you want to Commend them? Be more
than willing to talk to you about that.

CS: (sigh) Well ... . Well ... . I'm Flabbergasted. Amm. ... But If your cutting-of the conversation, umm
... I don't see any necessity to be rude or holler or anything.

PD: OK, Well ... , Neither one of us are doing that. I think we've been pretty up-front here, & pretty
respectful of each other's position. So ...

CS: Good Day, Sir.

PD: OK; Good-by.

(end of tape).